[RING RING]

Yes, this is Gug.

Hello.  This is John Ireland with In These Times.  How are you?

Fine Thanks.  How are you?

Great.  Thank you for agreeing to speak with me.  Is it okay for me to record this conversation?

Okay.  Before I was hesitant, but right now… before I was hesitant to have my voice recorded, but I realized that, uhhh, that issue will not apply now, so I can have it recorded.  So, you can go ahead.  You can record it.

Thank you.  So, you are a bit of a thorn in the side of the Ugandan government right now…

Yes, the [Gay Uganda] blog  is clearly promoting homosexuality and right now I’m talking to people… I’m challenging the MPs… I’m challenging the ministers.

Are you concerned that they will identify you and that you may be arrested?

Of course, I’ve been kind of mindful of the fact that they can identify me… and what has happened is that over the last week… one of the papers came out outing some of us and I was included and I’m very highly suspicious that [inaudible] who kind of outed me in that paper are quite sure of who I am and quite sure that I am the author [of the Gay Uganda Blog].  So, that’s why I say that right now I am very, very reluctant to talk on the phone.

You have never been so exposed in the many years you have been writing the Gay Uganda blog, right?

It’s a risk, which I have to carry.  I mean, I can’t do anything about it.  And at the moment it is the international exposure, which can be a kind of protection.  Though, it is not very good protection, of course. [laughs]

Can you describe how you felt back in October when the Anti-Homosexuality Bill was introduced?

Well, at the beginning, there was literally no discussion.  It was like the bill was going to be passed without discussion, without anybody saying, “Nay.”  Not anybody getting worried about it. 

But because of the international condemnation, because of the international pressure, the discussion has been forced even within the country.  Yes, I fear that international pressure would bring in people who are saying that “Uganda is a sovereign country.”  They’ll say that, but at the same time, the people outside the country are saying this bill is just horrible. Others are comparing it to Nazi Germany, so the [inaudible] discussion has been one of the best things to happen to us. 

I have read that supporters of the bill are calling for a march on January 19.

The chief organizer of the drive to have the bill become law is Pastor Martin Ssempa.  He is planning and he’s organizing the churches’ call for people to come from upcountry to Kampala to walk to Parliament.  Basically, they want to put pressure on the government to make sure that the government passes the bill as it is.  As some of the pastors say, they want it to pass with as little change as possible.  We’ve had reports that the president assured the U.S. State Department that the bill will not be passed.  So, they want to make sure that that does not occur.

Do you think that this march will draw many of your fellow Ugandans?

I’m not sure.  You see, one of the things that [inaudible] take into account… Uganda is more or less a dictatorship.  So if the president really is going, as he assured the U.S., to stop it, he will most likely not allow that demonstration to occur.

What can the average American do to support your cause?

I think America is… the U.S. is one of the biggest [inaudible] partners with Uganda.  Right now, Uganda is getting a lot of military aid because there is the war on terror, which is in Somalia.  And because of this, the Uganda government is very dependent on this military aid stuff, that means that the Obma administration has a lot of clout with the president.  Pressure in America on the representatives in Congress will do the trick for us.  I am very sure that pressure on my end is not going to do any trick, but I am also sure that if there is pressure on the government of Uganda, this bill will not become law.

How has your activism affected your relationships with your family members?

We don’t discuss my sexuality much with most of my family.  There is a sister that we do discuss it with, but she is kind of far away and I have not been able to engage her much on it.  The rest of the family… I know my father is following this avidly.  Well [laughs], the last few months, he asked me if I should not get out of the country, so I know he is worried, but I can’t, of course, put him… tell him that I am doing this sort of activism, which I think he suspects, [inaudible] but if those becomes law, some of those penalties will [inaudible].  Some of them I am not able to engage them at all, so the subject does not arise when I am in conversation with them.  Well… it’s that kind of thing… we just don’t talk about it.

Can you tell me how you met your partner?

He got my phone number from someone... from an acquaintance.  He sent me a New Year’s message and basically, because I didn’t have his number in my mobile, I asked who this person was.  And he rang me back and we began chatting…  One thing led to another and we met and we hit it off… nine years ago… [laughs] as a matter of fact.

Does your activism—writing the Gay Uganda blog—affect your relationship with your partner?

Well, it is a point of contention.  He tends to be more cautious than I am and I tend to be the more political, I would say so, so we are always discussing it.  Because I know that I am overexposed on the blog and when I am exposed, I also expose him.

Have you and your partner made any plans in the case that you need to leave Uganda?

At the moment, yes…. ummm, I haven’t thought this far ahead.  I am pretty sure that now that they know me, they will be coming after me.  So, it depends on whether or not I will still be able to… we shall decide if we can stay in the country or we can get out of the country.

Ummmm, I will decide… That is a decision which we can’t make until… we know we have been exposed, we know they know us, [inaudible] for example if they tried to arrest us… so we are kind of on a tightrope.  I cannot read the future.  That has to be amongst our continuous plans.  It’s a matter of fact… it has to be there.

How do you think it would feel to leave Uganda?

It’s something, which is a paradox for me. [laughs]  Uganda is a very beautiful country.  We are a poor country and we [inaudible] have a government, which is not so good.  Living here, I mean, it’s something, which… umm [laughs] it’s home.  We are united in that—me and my partner.

These guys come and kill us… no, this is our country.  This is our place.  We do not want to go to Europe or what… we don’t want to go anywhere else.  We just want to stay here. This is home.  With all its arguments, with all its beauty, with all its frustrating parts… still… this is home.

Before, I had some friends who ran away just because they just could not be themselves in Uganda. Maybe it’s because I am much older, maybe because I am in a stable partnership and my partner agrees with me, but… I love it.  This is home.

Through in-depth and compelling posts to your Gay Uganda blog, you have played a significant role in getting this story out to the international community.  Are you surprised at the following that you’ve developed?

When I first got copies of this bill, I was worried and I was very unhappy and depressed, because I knew the bill was going to become law without me doing anything to stop it.  Then, I realized that, as the world has come out with us, that I can rely on the kindness of strangers, as I call it.  Because people outside Uganda are the ones who are actually helping us.  I want to thank people outside the country because if it wasn’t for the fact that they are putting so much pressure on their governments, my government wouldn’t even think anything about making this bill law.  Without any discussion.

Western evangelical Christian leaders were slow to condemn the legislation, but many have now come out against it quite vociferously.  Rick Warren taped an encyclical in December to Ugandan pastors, urging them to oppose the bill.  Is there more that they can do at this point?

I realize that they are in a bit of a fix, because yes, it is a sovereign country, they are Christian brothers and sisters to the people here, but they have a lot of influence on the people here.  The people who are supporting the bill, the people who are actually pushing for it are pushing it in the name of god, in the name of Jesus, in the name of Christ.

Now, when Rick Warren speaks, they listen.  That is a matter of fact.  American evangelical Christians are on our television sets on a daily basis.  I think three out of seven channels are Christian television channels featuring American preachers.  These guys have a lots and lots of following.

The Rick Warren tape… I don’t believe actually got on any of these television channels.  But the fact is that the Rick Warren tape shook up people here.  [inaudible] there is something wrong.  The people on the ground here, I mean, most of the Pentecostal pastors here think that America is like the Vatican is to the Roman Catholics, so it’s like, if somebody speaks from there, they kind of start kind of examining what is happening.

Your identity has been compromised and it appears that the parliament will consider the bill in short order.  What are your hopes for the next weeks and months?

Okay [laughs] After this… I just hope, okay… I just hope it doesn’t become law.  I just want to keep living my private life [laughs] as it was before.  I don’t know if that is possible, but that is what I am praying for.  [garbled speech—then the line disconnects]

EDITORS NOTE: You can read Gug’s most recent posts at http://gayuganda.blogspot.com